Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Management Decisions?
A company we do business with has recently started closing for lunch. From noon till 1:00 PM they are closed and do not take orders. I find this very inconvenient and asked my salesman his thoughts. He too finds it very inconvenient, but the orders to close at noon, have “come down from the top.”
The salesman says, “At about 11:45 AM everyone now “starts getting ready for lunch.” This means if there is a large order that cannot be completed by the mandatary cutoff, they simply wait until after lunch to start. “Before we would simply break for lunch when we came to a logical stopping point,” he said. Now people walk around, wash their hands and do “busy-work” to fill the time before lunch.
There have been a number of complaints from clients. Sales are also down, but no change is in the works. Management is convinced this is a good move and will help cut cost. Management is supposed to optimize the organization so that workers may better serve clients. In so doing, clients buy more and profits increase. More to the point when observation does not match theory, theory must be revised.
How might such a plan have better been implemented?
Joined: 11 Jun 2007 Posts: 16 Location: Coldwater, Ohio
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject:
Aw c'mon Louis...there's no saving a bad plan. Anything that puts your priorities in front of your customers is bound to fail. You can buy anything, anywhere, the only reason people buy from us instead of someone else is because they believe it's in their best interest, from a cost, or quality, or convenience perspective to buy from us.
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject:
bbraun wrote:
Aw c'mon Louis...there's no saving a bad plan. Anything that puts your priorities in front of your customers is bound to fail. You can buy anything, anywhere, the only reason people buy from us instead of someone else is because they believe it's in their best interest, from a cost, or quality, or convenience perspective to buy from us.
I have to agree with you on that. The best way to implement a bad plan [if you are hell bent on doing so] is to do it on a very limited basis first. For instance, if he would have let two people go at noon and monitored the results. As a PDSA the negative effects might have been spoted, before the company was wrecked.
I believe all too often management makes this type mistake. Some seem to think any idea they have is a good one? If the client does not accept it, the client must be wrong Maybe they can educate the consumer
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 47 Location: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Management Decisions?
louis wrote:
A company we do business with has recently started closing for lunch. From noon till 1:00 PM they are closed and do not take orders. I find this very inconvenient and asked my salesman his thoughts. He too finds it very inconvenient, but the orders to close at noon, have “come down from the top.”
The salesman says, “At about 11:45 AM everyone now “starts getting ready for lunch.” This means if there is a large order that cannot be completed by the mandatary cutoff, they simply wait until after lunch to start. “Before we would simply break for lunch when we came to a logical stopping point,” he said. Now people walk around, wash their hands and do “busy-work” to fill the time before lunch.
There have been a number of complaints from clients. Sales are also down, but no change is in the works. Management is convinced this is a good move and will help cut cost. Management is supposed to optimize the organization so that workers may better serve clients. In so doing, clients buy more and profits increase. More to the point when observation does not match theory, theory must be revised.
How might such a plan have better been implemented?
Half the staff breaks from 11:30 to 12:30, the other half from 12:30 to 1:30.
_________________ Tom Ham
AutomotiveManagementNetwork.com - Hams Management Systems
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Management Decisions?
Tom Ham wrote:
louis wrote:
A company we do business with has recently started closing for lunch. From noon till 1:00 PM they are closed and do not take orders. I find this very inconvenient and asked my salesman his thoughts. He too finds it very inconvenient, but the orders to close at noon, have “come down from the top.”
The salesman says, “At about 11:45 AM everyone now “starts getting ready for lunch.” This means if there is a large order that cannot be completed by the mandatary cutoff, they simply wait until after lunch to start. “Before we would simply break for lunch when we came to a logical stopping point,” he said. Now people walk around, wash their hands and do “busy-work” to fill the time before lunch.
There have been a number of complaints from clients. Sales are also down, but no change is in the works. Management is convinced this is a good move and will help cut cost. Management is supposed to optimize the organization so that workers may better serve clients. In so doing, clients buy more and profits increase. More to the point when observation does not match theory, theory must be revised.
How might such a plan have better been implemented?
Half the staff breaks from 11:30 to 12:30, the other half from 12:30 to 1:30.
Hi Tom,
A definite improvement, in my opinion. I have a feeling, in time management may change their position. It’s hard for me to imagine they gave a lot of thought to this plan.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 47 Location: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Management Decisions?
louis wrote:
Tom Ham wrote:
louis wrote:
A company we do business with has recently started closing for lunch. From noon till 1:00 PM they are closed and do not take orders. I find this very inconvenient and asked my salesman his thoughts. He too finds it very inconvenient, but the orders to close at noon, have “come down from the top.”
The salesman says, “At about 11:45 AM everyone now “starts getting ready for lunch.” This means if there is a large order that cannot be completed by the mandatary cutoff, they simply wait until after lunch to start. “Before we would simply break for lunch when we came to a logical stopping point,” he said. Now people walk around, wash their hands and do “busy-work” to fill the time before lunch.
There have been a number of complaints from clients. Sales are also down, but no change is in the works. Management is convinced this is a good move and will help cut cost. Management is supposed to optimize the organization so that workers may better serve clients. In so doing, clients buy more and profits increase. More to the point when observation does not match theory, theory must be revised.
How might such a plan have better been implemented?
Half the staff breaks from 11:30 to 12:30, the other half from 12:30 to 1:30.
Hi Tom,
A definite improvement, in my opinion. I have a feeling, in time management may change their position. It’s hard for me to imagine they gave a lot of thought to this plan.
Ideally (and what I am working towards) it would go like this: "Take lunch whenever the spirit moves you. Take as long as you want. Take as many breaks as you want. Come in when you want. Leave when you want." And so on. We may never do this fully, but I believe we can move this way.
_________________ Tom Ham
AutomotiveManagementNetwork.com - Hams Management Systems
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Management Decisions?
Tom Ham wrote:
Ideally (and what I am working towards) it would go like this: "Take lunch whenever the spirit moves you. Take as long as you want. Take as many breaks as you want. Come in when you want. Leave when you want." And so on. We may never do this fully, but I believe we can move this way.
Hi Tom,
That's a very interesting concept and I think quite a workable one as well. Are you saying management would concentrate on managing and employees would be expected to act in everyone's best interest? I don't know a lot of managers that trust themselves that much.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 47 Location: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Management Decisions?
louis wrote:
Tom Ham wrote:
Ideally (and what I am working towards) it would go like this: "Take lunch whenever the spirit moves you. Take as long as you want. Take as many breaks as you want. Come in when you want. Leave when you want." And so on. We may never do this fully, but I believe we can move this way.
Hi Tom,
That's a very interesting concept and I think quite a workable one as well. Are you saying management would concentrate on managing and employees would be expected to act in everyone's best interest? I don't know a lot of managers that trust themselves that much.
That's pretty much it. Something like the way that Google operates. Employee compensation would be partially tied to their effectiveness so they would become self managing as far as many details go. Peer pressure would also come into play...in a positive way. Management would concentrate on the big picture and give employees a lot of control over most of the small and medium size things....and maybe even a few big ones.
_________________ Tom Ham
AutomotiveManagementNetwork.com - Hams Management Systems
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Management Decisions?
Tom Ham wrote:
louis wrote:
Tom Ham wrote:
Ideally (and what I am working towards) it would go like this: "Take lunch whenever the spirit moves you. Take as long as you want. Take as many breaks as you want. Come in when you want. Leave when you want." And so on. We may never do this fully, but I believe we can move this way.
Hi Tom,
That's a very interesting concept and I think quite a workable one as well. Are you saying management would concentrate on managing and employees would be expected to act in everyone's best interest? I don't know a lot of managers that trust themselves that much.
That's pretty much it. Something like the way that Google operates. Employee compensation would be partially tied to their effectiveness so they would become self managing as far as many details go. Peer pressure would also come into play...in a positive way. Management would concentrate on the big picture and give employees a lot of control over most of the small and medium size things....and maybe even a few big ones.
I like everything except the compensation angle, that might be quite a snag and I fear the roots of failure. I believe clearly communicating the vision of the business and leading people to accomplish it is not only great it is sufficient unto itself. Putting that little, "but if you don't" feature in seems like a slap in the face, to me. Not only unnecessary, the two concepts seem totally at odds with one another, in my opinion.
Ideally (and what I am working towards) it would go like this: "Take lunch whenever the spirit moves you. Take as long as you want. Take as many breaks as you want. Come in when you want. Leave when you want." And so on. We may never do this fully, but I believe we can move this way.
This seems like a lofty goal. The break part is easy. The lunch part I can handle. But not knowing when people will show up to, or leave work is very scarry. Do I schedule vehicles to start comming in at 8:00am or noon?
louis wrote:
Hi Tom,
That's a very interesting concept and I think quite a workable one as well. Are you saying management would concentrate on managing and employees would be expected to act in everyone's best interest? I don't know a lot of managers that trust themselves that much.
I do not understand how a manager not trusting themself affects an employee acting in everybodys best intrest? It seems to me that without some rules and guidelines things would become very chaotic.
I know we are suposed to drive out fear, but I see a lot of fear with this.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Hi Tom,
That's a very interesting concept and I think quite a workable one as well. Are you saying management would concentrate on managing and employees would be expected to act in everyone's best interest? I don't know a lot of managers that trust themselves that much.
I do not understand how a manager not trusting themself affects an employee acting in everybodys best intrest? It seems to me that without some rules and guidelines things would become very chaotic.
I know we are suposed to drive out fear, but I see a lot of fear with this.
Hi Dave,
It's not that there are no rules, in fact, just the opposite. People realize and follow what is in the best interest of the client, without the need for input from management. They do so because they realize this is in their own best interest.
For instance, we open at 7AM and clients are always there waiting. We have no rule for when to arrive, yet every staff member is there by 6:45 AM. There has been no one late in as long as I can recall. The same with missed days, lunch breaks, cell phone use, etc. No rules and no problems, just responsible people acting responsibly.
This absolutely will not work in most organizations and a great deal of work and trust building must go before. I think it is a great aim to work toward.
Here is an example of the AGCO Automotive Employee Handbook. Someone asked how I service-write for five techs and gross right under $2M in sales. Simple, self-managing staff.
It's not that there are no rules, in fact, just the opposite. People realize and follow what is in the best interest of the client, without the need for input from management. They do so because they realize this is in their own best interest.
For instance, we open at 7AM and clients are always there waiting. We have no rule for when to arrive, yet every staff member is there by 6:45 AM. There has been no one late in as long as I can recall. The same with missed days, lunch breaks, cell phone use, etc. No rules and no problems, just responsible people acting responsibly.
This absolutely will not work in most organizations and a great deal of work and trust building must go before. I think it is a great aim to work toward.
Here is an example of the AGCO Automotive Employee Handbook. Someone asked how I service-write for five techs and gross right under $2M in sales. Simple, self-managing staff.
Louis,
I assume that you have some other way of communicating what most people put in a handbook. For instance your benifits package, or the company philosophy, what to do in case of an accident. Just because it is not in the employee handbook does not mean it does not exist.
Just because the rules are not written down, does not mean they do not exist. Most of the time it is the unwritten rules that have the most impact.
That your employees show up 15 minutes before opening time is just common sense. You are supposed to arrive at work before starting time. Now it may be an unwritten rule that everybodys arrives 15 to 30 minutes early, drinks some coffee, chews the fat and gets ready for the day.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Management Decisions?
Dave wrote:
louis wrote:
Hi Dave,
It's not that there are no rules, in fact, just the opposite. People realize and follow what is in the best interest of the client, without the need for input from management. They do so because they realize this is in their own best interest.
For instance, we open at 7AM and clients are always there waiting. We have no rule for when to arrive, yet every staff member is there by 6:45 AM. There has been no one late in as long as I can recall. The same with missed days, lunch breaks, cell phone use, etc. No rules and no problems, just responsible people acting responsibly.
This absolutely will not work in most organizations and a great deal of work and trust building must go before. I think it is a great aim to work toward.
Here is an example of the AGCO Automotive Employee Handbook. Someone asked how I service-write for five techs and gross right under $2M in sales. Simple, self-managing staff.
Louis,
I assume that you have some other way of communicating what most people put in a handbook. For instance your benifits package, or the company philosophy, what to do in case of an accident. Just because it is not in the employee handbook does not mean it does not exist.
Just because the rules are not written down, does not mean they do not exist. Most of the time it is the unwritten rules that have the most impact.
That your employees show up 15 minutes before opening time is just common sense. You are supposed to arrive at work before starting time. Now it may be an unwritten rule that everybodys arrives 15 to 30 minutes early, drinks some coffee, chews the fat and gets ready for the day.
Hi Dave,
That's basically it, responsible people acting responsibly. Instead of rules, we simply count on our people to do would needs to be done. For instance Josh may come in at 5 AM if he has several transmissions to get built. No body tells him to, he does it because it pleases him to do so. He enhances his contribution to the company and the company has more to share with everyone.
Brian comes in on Saturday to route air lines and install a filtration system. He does so because it needs to be done and he is best qualified to do so.
Most US business is more a maze of rules and regulations. As soon as they are passed, employees start figuring a way around them. Then comes more complex rules and incentives to try to plug the gaps. The cycle simply repeats. What a waste!!
People are very smart, when they're treated like people. When treated like a mindless machine, they normally respond in like manner, in my experience.
Benefits are pretty simple too. Everybody gets the same and as much as the company can afford. No one ask for a raise, they come at regular intervals, as production increases.
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject:
Louis,
Forgive me for chasing this rabbit, but....
How do you communicate to a new employee how things are done at AGCO? I do not think that you just say to a new tech “put your tools in bay 6. Here are a list of vehicles for you to fix.” You probably have procedures and guidelines to follow?
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject:
Dave wrote:
Louis,
Forgive me for chasing this rabbit, but....
How do you communicate to a new employee how things are done at AGCO? I do not think that you just say to a new tech “put your tools in bay 6. Here are a list of vehicles for you to fix.” You probably have procedures and guidelines to follow?
Hi Dave,
Not a problem at all. Very good question!! Actually, hiring for us starts about three-four years out. The applicant is first interviewed and told the opening will likely be in three to four years. If interested, they are given a reading list, and referred to our website. We stay in touch with them by email over this period and invite them to all company functions, just as an employee.
When an opening comes available, we notify the perspective employees and interview them again. The job normally goes to the person who best understands and agrees with our philosophy. When hired they are already familiar with our practices and principals, because they know our philosophy. The shop is laid out in a pretty straight forward method so no orientation is needed. They are familiar with our staff from company functions.
Every staff member is a living example of how things are done. Any questions that could arise are easily handled by asking any staff. Their comments and suggestions are encouraged and they understand we are always looking for a better way, not just the way we always did it. My thought is, if a person is capable, wants to do the right thing and is given the things they need, very few rules are needed. Without these conditions, no amount of rules in the world will help.
Joined: 20 May 2007 Posts: 20 Location: South Australia
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject:
louis wrote:
Dave wrote:
Louis,
Forgive me for chasing this rabbit, but....
How do you communicate to a new employee how things are done at AGCO? I do not think that you just say to a new tech “put your tools in bay 6. Here are a list of vehicles for you to fix.” You probably have procedures and guidelines to follow?
Hi Dave,
Not a problem at all. Very good question!! Actually, hiring for us starts about three-four years out. The applicant is first interviewed and told the opening will likely be in three to four years. If interested, they are given a reading list, and referred to our website. We stay in touch with them by email over this period and invite them to all company functions, just as an employee.
When an opening comes available, we notify the perspective employees and interview them again. The job normally goes to the person who best understands and agrees with our philosophy. When hired they are already familiar with our practices and principals, because they know our philosophy. The shop is laid out in a pretty straight forward method so no orientation is needed. They are familiar with our staff from company functions.
Every staff member is a living example of how things are done. Any questions that could arise are easily handled by asking any staff. Their comments and suggestions are encouraged and they understand we are always looking for a better way, not just the way we always did it. My thought is, if a person is capable, wants to do the right thing and is given the things they need, very few rules are needed. Without these conditions, no amount of rules in the world will help.
Hi Louis,
I had to read the above twice to be sure I was not mistaken!
To have employees lining up 3-4 years in advance was not even on my radar. Talk about thinking outside the square.
How far into your Deming transformation were you before future staff were lining up for jobs? More importantly how did future staff know about AGCO way of doing things?
_________________ David Vidler
Owner/ Manager - Seaside Automotive
South Australia
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:46 am Post subject:
louis wrote:
Hi Dave,
Not a problem at all. Very good question!! Actually, hiring for us starts about three-four years out. The applicant is first interviewed and told the opening will likely be in three to four years. If interested, they are given a reading list, and referred to our website. We stay in touch with them by email over this period and invite them to all company functions, just as an employee.
Louis,
Wow, you continue to amaze me with your procedures. Nothing about you is as it seems. Where most companies use an Employee Handbook to communicate how things are done, you have had a few years of orientation before an employee starts to work for you.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject:
Seaside wrote:
Hi Louis,
I had to read the above twice to be sure I was not mistaken!
To have employees lining up 3-4 years in advance was not even on my radar. Talk about thinking outside the square.
How far into your Deming transformation were you before future staff were lining up for jobs? More importantly how did future staff know about AGCO way of doing things?
Hi David,
Some interest came early on, but I would say about 15 years into the process. It's not real difficult to know about our way of doing things, we tell everyone that will listen Other shops also tend to notice when a competitor grows as consistently as we do. We will be right under $2M in sales this year, almost a 100% increase in five years, when most shops are hanging-on or closing. Eventually this filters down to the techs.
We often get applicants after training classes our techs attend. Techs talk during the breaks and apparently they like what our techs say. I think most good techs are just looking for a place where they can apply their abilities and be proud of the work they do. Thanks David, I appreciate your interest.
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject:
Dave wrote:
louis wrote:
Hi Dave,
Not a problem at all. Very good question!! Actually, hiring for us starts about three-four years out. The applicant is first interviewed and told the opening will likely be in three to four years. If interested, they are given a reading list, and referred to our website. We stay in touch with them by email over this period and invite them to all company functions, just as an employee.
Louis,
Wow, you continue to amaze me with your procedures. Nothing about you is as it seems. Where most companies use an Employee Handbook to communicate how things are done, you have had a few years of orientation before an employee starts to work for you.
I think recruiting must be an on-going process and I try to involve perspective employees in our company as soon as possible. They are invited to our Christmas parties, all training and any company functions. We also give every applicant a tour of our shop and invite them to lunch with our techs.
As to rules, I think they are okay but largely unnecessary. When I was young [and foolish,] I once challenged my Father on doing things that were "not against the rules." He told me, "I you have to hide to do it, it's wrong." I have never forgotten that.
I think every normal person knows right from wrong. It's the wrong that benefits them personally that causes confusion. A just man will do the right thing, because he knows it is in everyone's best interest. His pride prevents him from doing less than his best. He needs no rules to come to work on time, not talk needlessly on his cell phone, or even spend a reasonable amount of time at lunch. If he is not just, no amount of rules in the world will help, in my opinion.
Thanks Dave, I appreciate your letting me discuss this with you.
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject:
louis wrote:
As to rules, I think they are okay but largely unnecessary. When I was young [and foolish,] I once challenged my Father on doing things that were "not against the rules." He told me, "I you have to hide to do it, it's wrong." I have never forgotten that.
A wise man, this father of yours. That is a great piece of advice!!
louis wrote:
I think every normal person knows right from wrong. It's the wrong that benefits them personally that causes confusion. A just man will do the right thing, because he knows it is in everyone's best interest. His pride prevents him from doing less than his best. He needs no rules to come to work on time, not talk needlessly on his cell phone, or even spend a reasonable amount of time at lunch. If he is not just, no amount of rules in the world will help, in my opinion.
Thanks Dave, I appreciate your letting me discuss this with you.
Seems like I had to drag it out of you. It is kind of like Paul Harvy's 'The Rest of The Story'.
Thank you for sharing and helping me understand.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
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I have to agree with you on that. The best way to implement a bad plan [if you are hell bent on doing so] is to do it on a very limited basis first. For instance, if he would have let two people go at noon and monitored the results. As a 
Maybe they can educate the consumer 
Seems like I had to drag it out of you. 