Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: Success and Failure, Who's Fault?
Bob is a fictional character, but one most of us have met many times in life. Bob is a personable guy and has very good intentions. He is also talented, passionate and quite intelligent. Over the years Bob has held several jobs, but none were exactly what he wanted. At first things may seem okay, like there will be some promise. Later flaws begin to reveal themselves and eventually Bob leaves or sometimes is asked to leave.
Over the years Bob has almost come to expect this. He hopes for that one job, where he can be happy and his talents will be appreciated. Unfortunately he also grows a bit more skeptical with each experience. He recalls most conflicts, commitments not honored and examples of poor management quite vividly. These personal insults live inside Bob, an ever present reminder of the past.
We might also substitute the words Church, organization and possibly friends for jobs and the story might be much the same. I think Bob is in a cycle, a hard cycle to break.
Commitment
Excitement
Realization
Justification
Resentment
Resignation
Most of us have known Bob and in ways there may be some Bob in all of us. If Bob would listen, are there suggestions you might offer?
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Success and Failure, Who's Fault?
louis wrote:
Bob is a fictional character, but one most of us have met many times in life. Bob is a personable guy and has very good intentions. He is also talented, passionate and quite intelligent. Over the years Bob has held several jobs, but none were exactly what he wanted. At first things may seem okay, like there will be some promise. Later flaws begin to reveal themselves and eventually Bob leaves or sometimes is asked to leave.
Over the years Bob has almost come to expect this. He hopes for that one job, where he can be happy and his talents will be appreciated. Unfortunately he also grows a bit more skeptical with each experience. He recalls most conflicts, commitments not honored and examples of poor management quite vividly. These personal insults live inside Bob, an ever present reminder of the past.
We might also substitute the words Church, organization and possibly friends for jobs and the story might be much the same. I think Bob is in a cycle, a hard cycle to break.
Commitment
Excitement
Realization
Justification
Resentment
Resignation
Most of us have known Bob and in ways there may be some Bob in all of us. If Bob would listen, are there suggestions you might offer?
Bob, to me has a skewed view of reality. He has a view that he sees as the ideal, which is actually no more than everything as he has preconceived at a given time. This brings a commitment, but the commitment is based on his changing view of reality. In reality he is seeking the next step, which is excitement.
When Bob starts a new venture (e.g., Job, friendship, membership, etc.) he makes a commitment, seeking the excitement of it being precisely as he thinks it should be. Since his view of reality as well as everyone else’s changes according to their mood and emotions, this is short lived. This brings on realization or a view of reality that does not fit the preconceived view.
When theory does not match observation, most realize that theory must be revised. A well adjusted person also realizes that everything will not always go as they plan. They realize a million variables will simply cause some days to be better than others. Bob on the other hand, tends to take things personally. He recalls most conflicts, commitments not honored and examples of poor management quite vividly. These personal insults live inside Bob, an ever present reminder of the past. Worse, he does not attempt to forgive or forget. Instead he internalizes these insults, which brings us to the next stage, justification.
Bob now starts to look for reasons to justify the next step, resentment. In the resentment phase, Bob becomes more and more bitter. Soon he finds his surroundings intolerable and moves to resignation. He will either quit or be discharged and start his search over for the excitement of commitment.
Bob has likely had many job in his life. He may have been affiliated with a few organizations and religions as well. We may know Bob, he may currently work for us or he may even be us. Any suggestions?
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 146 Location: Garden City, KS
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Success and Failure, Who's Fault?
Quote:
Bob is a fictional character, but one most of us have met many times in life.
I've read over this a few times and spent some time thinking it over. I feel that I am "Bob".
Quote:
Bob is a personable guy and has very good intentions. He is also talented, passionate and quite intelligent. Over the years Bob has held several jobs, but none were exactly what he wanted. At first things may seem okay, like there will be some promise. Later flaws begin to reveal themselves and eventually Bob leaves or sometimes is asked to leave.
I've left places, but have yet to be asked to leave. Exactly what I wanted wasn't nearly as important as what I was told in the interview and hiring process. Many times I felt I was told what I wanted to hear to get me to work at a given place of business.
Quote:
Over the years Bob has almost come to expect this. He hopes for that one job, where he can be happy and his talents will be appreciated. Unfortunately he also grows a bit more skeptical with each experience. He recalls most conflicts, commitments not honored and examples of poor management quite vividly. These personal insults live inside Bob, an ever present reminder of the past.
I don't know if I've reached this step yet, but I can sense myself getting there.
Quote:
We might also substitute the words Church, organization and possibly friends for jobs and the story might be much the same. I think Bob is in a cycle, a hard cycle to break.
Commitment
Excitement
Realization
Justification
Resentment
Resignation
Most of us have known Bob and in ways there may be some Bob in all of us. If Bob would listen, are there suggestions you might offer?
I definitely don't fit in with Bob on the friends issue, I've had pretty much the same friends from junior and senior high. Friends I've made have remained friends for years. Off hand, I can't think of an "organization" I've been a part of that I no longer affiliate myself with.
Quote:
Bob, to me has a skewed view of reality. He has a view that he sees as the ideal, which is actually no more than everything as he has preconceived at a given time. This brings a commitment, but the commitment is based on his changing view of reality. In reality he is seeking the next step, which is excitement.
From my point of view, my idea of and view of reality was formed from the interview and hiring process. I try very hard to give a good interview and by that I mean I try to ask very hard questions and ask for detailed answers. This is also a frustrating area. Is me or them or both?
Quote:
When Bob starts a new venture (e.g., Job, friendship, membership, etc.) he makes a commitment, seeking the excitement of it being precisely as he thinks it should be. Since his view of reality as well as everyone else’s changes according to their mood and emotions, this is short lived. This brings on realization or a view of reality that does not fit the preconceived view.
No argument there.
Quote:
When theory does not match observation, most realize that theory must be revised. A well adjusted person also realizes that everything will not always go as they plan. They realize a million variables will simply cause some days to be better than others. Bob on the other hand, tends to take things personally. He recalls most conflicts, commitments not honored and examples of poor management quite vividly. These personal insults live inside Bob, an ever present reminder of the past. Worse, he does not attempt to forgive or forget. Instead he internalizes these insults, which brings us to the next stage, justification.
I'm not positive if this pertains to me. I feel I understand day to day issues and chaotic systems, but where I definitely fall in-line with the above is that I do recall everything that was said to me. I vividly recall contradictions, hypocrisy, runarounds, misleading, etc. I also see lack of effort to provide an environment or take the steps necessary to create a path to get where we need or where it was said he/she/we want to go.
Quote:
Bob now starts to look for reasons to justify the next step, resentment. In the resentment phase, Bob becomes more and more bitter. Soon he finds his surroundings intolerable and moves to resignation. He will either quit or be discharged and start his search over for the excitement of commitment.
Agreed.
Quote:
Bob has likely had many job in his life. He may have been affiliated with a few organizations and religions as well. We may know Bob, he may currently work for us or he may even be us.
I don't know what is considered "many jobs", but I'm still way under 10 (jobs). Like I mentioned before, I can't think of any organizations I've parted ways with.
Quote:
Any suggestions?
I don't know...I'm open to them, though. Like I mentioned before, I don't hold people responsible for events out of their control. I do, however, hold them responsible for backing up what they say with either results or even more important effort. Show me you're trying. I want to help. I want everyone to be happy and everyone to succeed. I didn't give specific issues or scenarios, but if you want any just ask.
Very interesting post, Louis. Thanks! Later, Matt.
_________________ Matt Fanslow
ASE CMAT/L1
Crag-Technologies, Inc
www.wavehook.com
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 774 Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Success and Failure, Who's Fault?
MattFMN wrote:
Quote:
Bob is a fictional character, but one most of us have met many times in life.
I've read over this a few times and spent some time thinking it over. I feel that I am "Bob".
Hi Matt,
It is doubtful that anyone is purely Bob, but many people have some of his traits. I invented Bob and this theory of behavior, many years ago, to understand my own behavior.
MattFMN wrote:
Quote:
Bob is a personable guy and has very good intentions. He is also talented, passionate and quite intelligent. Over the years Bob has held several jobs, but none were exactly what he wanted. At first things may seem okay, like there will be some promise. Later flaws begin to reveal themselves and eventually Bob leaves or sometimes is asked to leave.
I've left places, but have yet to be asked to leave. Exactly what I wanted wasn't nearly as important as what I was told in the interview and hiring process. Many times I felt I was told what I wanted to hear to get me to work at a given place of business.
What I discovered, in my case, was that I also tended to hear what I wanted to hear. Though many things were expressed and did not pan out. I think the person(s) making the offers tended to speak in terms of their visions, rather than reality. They hoped to do what they said, but were not always able. Human communication is not very reliable, at best. In a stressful situation, with two strangers, both trying to make a good impression, it’s much worse.
MattFMN wrote:
Quote:
Over the years Bob has almost come to expect this. He hopes for that one job, where he can be happy and his talents will be appreciated. Unfortunately he also grows a bit more skeptical with each experience. He recalls most conflicts, commitments not honored and examples of poor management quite vividly. These personal insults live inside Bob, an ever present reminder of the past.
I don't know if I've reached this step yet, but I can sense myself getting there.
Then this is a perfect time to try to practice to forgive and forget. That sounds simplistic, but is likely one of the greatest secrets to success that ever existed. It is also one of the most difficult to practice. Truly forgiving others is not for their benefit, it is for our own. We carry this weight and it poisons future possibility. One of Bob’s greatest failings is his inability to let the past stay in the past, forgive as you would wish to be forgiven.
Everyone makes mistakes, hurts others, and are seen in the eyes of someone as having let them down. Forgive and hope for forgiveness. It’s too great a burden to carry.
MattFMN wrote:
Quote:
We might also substitute the words Church, organization and possibly friends for jobs and the story might be much the same. I think Bob is in a cycle, a hard cycle to break.
Commitment
Excitement
Realization
Justification
Resentment
Resignation
Most of us have known Bob and in ways there may be some Bob in all of us. If Bob would listen, are there suggestions you might offer?
I definitely don't fit in with Bob on the friends issue, I've had pretty much the same friends from junior and senior high. Friends I've made have remained friends for years. Off hand, I can't think of an "organization" I've been a part of that I no longer affiliate myself with.
Different people will fit different patterns, though I think the principal is the same. With some people it’s friends, other jobs, others it may be organizations, etc. I think that which we are most passionate about is likely where disappointment and eventual resentment is most likely to build.
A person that takes a job and just put’s in their hours, with little concern is not likely to feel this way. As long as they make X amount, they remain sort of comfortable. There is no emotional investment. Many people in higher paying jobs may be this way.
MattFMN wrote:
Quote:
Bob, to me has a skewed view of reality. He has a view that he sees as the ideal, which is actually no more than everything as he has preconceived at a given time. This brings a commitment, but the commitment is based on his changing view of reality. In reality he is seeking the next step, which is excitement.
From my point of view, my idea of and view of reality was formed from the interview and hiring process. I try very hard to give a good interview and by that I mean I try to ask very hard questions and ask for detailed answers. This is also a frustrating area. Is me or them or both?
What was a revelation to me was to actually learn my reality was not reality. It was a view of reality. This was quite difficult to grasp. My technical background made it even tougher. To a technical person things are right/wrong, 0/1, on/off, shorted/open, etc. The human mind is not black and white, it’s a billion shades of gray.
You and I can hear and see the exact same event and come away with totally different meanings. Most human conflict is not between right and wrong, it’s between two views of right.
MattFMN wrote:
Quote:
When Bob starts a new venture (e.g., Job, friendship, membership, etc.) he makes a commitment, seeking the excitement of it being precisely as he thinks it should be. Since his view of reality as well as everyone else’s changes according to their mood and emotions, this is short lived. This brings on realization or a view of reality that does not fit the preconceived view.
No argument there.
Quote:
When theory does not match observation, most realize that theory must be revised. A well adjusted person also realizes that everything will not always go as they plan. They realize a million variables will simply cause some days to be better than others. Bob on the other hand, tends to take things personally. He recalls most conflicts, commitments not honored and examples of poor management quite vividly. These personal insults live inside Bob, an ever present reminder of the past. Worse, he does not attempt to forgive or forget. Instead he internalizes these insults, which brings us to the next stage, justification.
I'm not positive if this pertains to me. I feel I understand day to day issues and chaotic systems, but where I definitely fall in-line with the above is that I do recall everything that was said to me. I vividly recall contradictions, hypocrisy, runarounds, misleading, etc. I also see lack of effort to provide an environment or take the steps necessary to create a path to get where we need or where it was said he/she/we want to go.
What is impossible to see is the other person’s view. Hypocrisy may be weakness. They know right, wish to do right, speak about doing right, but lapse into wrong; A common human failing. We see them as a hypocrite, they see themselves as doing the best they can. People tend to judge themselves by their intentions and others by their actions. “Runarounds” normally result from a person’s desire to not face their failings, such as in procrastination. This does not help those who count on them, it simply explains their behavior. They are unlikely to change, because they have justified the problem.
Few people will take action when uncertain, face their fears and always act as they should. Those that do, become great leaders, most never will.
MattFMN wrote:
Quote:
Bob now starts to look for reasons to justify the next step, resentment. In the resentment phase, Bob becomes more and more bitter. Soon he finds his surroundings intolerable and moves to resignation. He will either quit or be discharged and start his search over for the excitement of commitment.
Agreed.
Quote:
Bob has likely had many job in his life. He may have been affiliated with a few organizations and religions as well. We may know Bob, he may currently work for us or he may even be us.
I don't know what is considered "many jobs", but I'm still way under 10 (jobs). Like I mentioned before, I can't think of any organizations I've parted ways with.
Quote:
Any suggestions?
I don't know...I'm open to them, though. Like I mentioned before, I don't hold people responsible for events out of their control. I do, however, hold them responsible for backing up what they say with either results or even more important effort. Show me you're trying. I want to help. I want everyone to be happy and everyone to succeed. I didn't give specific issues or scenarios, but if you want any just ask.
Very interesting post, Louis. Thanks! Later, Matt.
For me, answers came in two forms. Forgiving those I felt had wronged me and changing my perception. When listening to people, I had to realize they often speak from their vision, rather than their reality. Realizing this, the responsibility shifts to me to verify if the situation is right for me. Giving the benefit of the doubt to others and realizing things are usually not as bad as I perceive is also quite handy. Things sometimes just don’t go as planned.
Example: An employee leaves for lunch. We are extremely busy and he’s gone for two hours. At an hour and fifteen minutes, I notice they are late. At an hour and a half it become a personal affront to my authority. At two hours I am furious. This guy is just trying to make me mad! He’s seeing how far he can push! He does care about this business! NO! They just got tied up and are sorry they are late.
I can politely ask, did something keep you? Are I can rage, “You’re late!” Which will have a better effect long term? Thanks Matt, your insights are keen as always. I appreciate the reply.
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject:
Louis and Matt,
Thank you for this post. It has been thought provoking for me. I am still wrestling with it. I can see where ‘Bob’ is in most of us to one degree or another.
With any new venture that we go into there is a honeymoon period. After that time is over and reality sets in is when the work starts. Most people realize this and adapt, but there are some that do not.
In my experience, while I feel sorry for them, I am unable to help the hard core Bob’s. It almost seems that they need to repeat the cycle. It is like they are addicted to the excitement phase. They set themselves up for failure so they can start the cycle again.
_________________ David Wittmayer
Owner / Manager
Hansen Enterprises Fleet Repair, LLC
Camp Verde, AZ
www.hefrshop.com
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Like I mentioned before, I don't hold people responsible for events out of their control. I do, however, hold them responsible for backing up what they say with either results or even more important effort. Show me you're trying. I want to help. I want everyone to be happy and everyone to succeed. I didn't give specific issues or scenarios, but if you want any just ask. 